Sourcing metal and Category:Casting Shop: Difference between pages

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== Where Can I Source Metal? ==
{{Shop
|shop_title        = Casting Shop
|image              = Jan_2024.jpg
|caption            = View of the Artisans Asylum Casting Shop
|lead              = Tess Faraci
|tool_testers      = [https://www.artisansasylum.com/tool-testing Sign up here]
|hours              = Same as membership hours
}}


=== Scope of this document ===
== Shop Description ==
'''The Artisans Asylum Casting Shop offers equipment and training for two main processes:  Sand Casting and Investment Casting.'''


This is created by the Metal shop, for metal shop users. The Machine Shop tends to have different needs & wants for metals.
'''The Sand Casting program''' at the Artisans Asylum allows the reproduction of objects in metal with a level of detail suitable for small sculpture, jewelry, and select engineering applications.
— This method is suitable for beginners as well as experienced shop users who are interested in producing a cast piece within the time period of a few hours.


=== Steel ===
Our shop mostly uses steel, specifically mild steel. Mild just means it’s not any special steel like stainless steel, or a high-strength steel like 4130, or steels with any special ingredients like lead to enhance machinability. Mild steel is made of just two things, iron and carbon, and very little of anything else. Mild steel sometimes gets called 1018 steel or A36.
If you’re not a big rush, like if 2-3 business days of lead time is OK, then call Turner Steel in West Bridgewater, MA. Use the Artisans Asylum account and get quotes on everything you need. If the total is under about $150, see the Turner Steel Group Order FAQ for info about putting together a group order. If you’re over $150, you can just place the order yourself directly from Turner.
If you need metal today or tomorrow, see below re Metals Supermarket.


=== Other metals ===
'''The Investment Casting program''' at the Artisans Asylum involves a two to three day process that allows the reproduction of complex shapes in a way that preserves a high level of fine detail.  
Metals Supermarket in Woburn has relatively high prices, but a broad selection of metals including nonferrous. They include cutting in their prices, so they’re sometimes an especially good option if you need a lot of short things cut up. The cuts aren’t super precision. They at least used to have a room full of scrap or off-cuts, i.e. chunks remaining when they use up a length of metal.


=== Why do Tuner Steel group orders? ===
— This method is suitable for intermediate to advanced shop users interested in achieving exceptionally high quality and precision in their cast objects.
Probably the best local supplier of steel is Turner Steel in West Bridgewater, MA. They have generally the best prices and a wide selection, they’re generally reliable, and they’ve been the default supplier for all of Asylum history. The big catch is they require a $150 minimum order. Delivery is free, within about 2 business days, for any orders above the minimum. The minimum is slightly negotiable, as in they’ll often let you order with anything above about $140, maybe $145.
So the Asylum tradition is for someone with experience dealing with Turner to set up a group order, where multiple Asylum folks come together to place an order that meets the minimum. These are organized spontaneously by whomever has a need, on an as-needed, decentralized basis.


=== How do I know how much the steel costs and what's available? How do I place an order? ===
The only way to find out Turner's pricing is to call Turner. They have a reputation for being a little ornery, as in, they tend to be interested in simply selling steel, ideally large quantities of it.<br>
They tend to be uninterested in discussing your project/needs/interests.<br>
They want to know what shape you want and what size.<br>
Shapes available may include:<br>
Sheet/plate (sized by gauge number or fractional thickness, plus width & length)<br>
Round bar (sized by diameter)<br>
Square bar (sized by height/width)<br>
Flat bar (sized by thickness and width)<br>
Hex bar (sized by width)<br>
Angle (sized by width, height, and thickness)<br>
Square tube (sized by width and wall thickness)<br>
Rectangular tube (sized by height, width, and wall thickness)<br>
Round tube (sized by outside diameter [OD] and wall thickness)<br>
Pipe (sized by nominal OD and schedule number)<br>
Channel (sizing is complex and beyond our scope)<br>
I-beam (there’s many sub-types of structural beams, I’m lumping them into a bucket here, their sizing is complex and beyond our scope)<br>
When you call them, tell the receptionist that you’d like a quote. You’ll be transferred to a salesperson. Tell the salesperson you have an account, and give the account name Artisans Asylum.<br>
Once you have quotes, send to whomever is organizing the order a list of what you want and what Turner’s price is.<br>
Most stuff is sold in 20 foot lengths, though some in 12-foot and some in 24-foot lengths. Generally Turner seems to be uninterested in selling smaller portions than a full stick/length, but ask for what you want and see what they say.<br>
They will shear plate into rectangles, but they won’t cut to any other shape, e.g. via CNC.
You may need to familiarize yourself with the steel industry’s esoteric concepts like sheet metal gauge, terms like OD and ID, the names and shapes of various structural beam profiles, etc. These systems are sadly largely unintuitive and old-fashioned. <br>
You may be offered the option to purchase cold rolled or hot rolled steel. There’s also HRPO–hot rolled, pickled, and oiled–typically offered only for sheet/plate. It’s your responsibility to determine which of these options is best for your application. Cold rolled and HRPO are nice because they don’t have scale on their surface, which is convenient for TIG welding because TIG is so picky about contaminants like scale. Paint also doesn’t stick as well to scale as it does to bare steel. Cold rolled’s main downside is that the outer layers have been compressed a little, so you tend to see a little more distortion when machining cold rolled vs. hot rolled. Hot rolled is sometimes a little cheaper than cold rolled, all else equal, though not a lot. Hot rolled is not as precise in sizing–especially the thickness dimension varies a bit more than cold rolled.


The Casting Shop encourages experimentation and knowledge-sharing for the production of jewelry and artwork achievable using equipment appropriate to our shop. Our facilities are oriented toward hand crafted pieces the size of jewelry and slightly larger — we do not have the resources to support larger foundry work.


=== Can I order other metals besides steel? ===
== Casting Techniques ==
Turner doesn't generally stock other metals to my knowledge, though this may have changed and they may be able to order that stuff.


{| class="infobox" cellspacing="5" style="width: 22em; text-align: left; font-size: 88%; line-height: 1.5em;"
! colspan="2" class="infobox-image" | [[File:bronze_casting_resource_pic.jpg|350px|Bronze at 2000 F]]
|-
| colspan="2" | Bronze at 2000 F
|-
|}


=== How do I pay? ===
'''Investment Casting at the Artisans Asylum,''' sometimes referred to as Lost Wax Casting, starts with the creation of a jewelry-sized object, or “pattern,” often made with wax.
Asylum is not involved in this transaction. The person organizing the group order is ordering steel from Turner. All other parties need to send money to the organizer, via whatever mechanism they prefer, to pay for their piece of the order.
Turner requires an account to place an order, but the Asylum account is a cash account, meaning payment is due at time of purchase, no credit offered.


— The pattern is encased in investment, a silica and gypsum based substance that resembles plaster.


=== Do I need to be a member, a renter, a metal shop expert, etc? ===
—Once the investment has set, the wax is then “burnt out” using an overnight kiln program, producing  a cavity into which the molten metal can be poured. The kiln program also further hardens the investment.
No.


=== How does one receive shipments from Turner? Do they know how to get to the loading dock? ===
— At a pre-arranged time the next day, the flask containing the investment is pulled out of the kiln and immediately put on a Vacuum Table, where the molten metal is then poured.
They seem to have figured out the new Allston location and its quirks pretty well and in short order.
 
It's best to at least give Turner your cell phone number at time of order, as a backup.
— Once metal has cooled enough to solidify, the hot flask is then “quenched,” or submerged in a bucket of water that quickly liquifies the investment, allowing the finished casting to be easily retrieved.
Officially, shop staff & volunteers are not involved in receiving Turner deliveries. The person organizing the group order is in a business relationship with Turner Steel. That person is responsible for ensuring there's at least a Deskie around, or someone in the shop to help receive. Do not assume that Shop staff/volunteers will be in the shop at the time of delivery.
 
That said, unofficially, it's worked out fine for the deliveries I've received thus far at the new location--I assume Turner's driver found a Deskie to let them in. All I know is I came into the shop a few hours after delivery and found my steel sitting on the floor in front of the metal shop loading dock door, with a slip waiting for me at the Antwerp front desk. Turner seems to have this figured out. The slip has listed a set of Asylum open hours that may not be completely accurate but are at least somewhat representative of reality ;)
 
'''Sand Casting at the Artisans Asylum''' involves the use of Petrobond casting sand, an oil-based sand that significantly reduces the water vapor-produced concerns that come with water-based casting sands.
 
— Sand casting allows the reproduction of the pattern in a matter of hours, without the destruction of the original pattern.
 
 
'''A detailed overview of the Investment Casting process at the Artisans Asylum is available here:'''
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qid-hoZIWx5stFZQGZ09LY4L7qxmhOA8/view?usp=sharing
 
 
'''Details on mold construction with Petrobond Sand are available here:'''
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mP0Iwi35cRk-C8SCcghau3G-CnKU2bwY/view?usp=sharing
 
== List of Primary Tools ==
 
'''For Melting Metal:'''
 
— Electro-melt(s).    '''Link to:''' [[Electromelt Tool Resource Page]]
— Oxy-Propane Torch.    '''Link to:''' [[Casting Shop Oxy-Propane Torch Resource Page]]
 
— The shop provides appropriate graphite and clay-silica crucibles.
 
 
'''For Investment Casting'''
 
— Investment Hood
 
— Kiln. '''Link to:''' [[Sentry Kiln Tool Resource Page]]
 
— Vacuum Table. ''' Link to: ''' [[Vacuum Table Tool Resource Page]]
 
— The shop provides Ransom & Randolph Ultra-Vest investment and casting flasks in select sizes.
 
 
The product sheet for Ultra-Vest investment can be found here:
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IVs3M5fmvPaCoeO9CmTQ55ZyzfqehWEH/view?usp=sharing
 
 
'''For Sand Casting'''
 
— The shop provides Petrobond sand, metal mold-making flasks in select sizes, and mold-making tools.
 
== Tool Documentation ==
 
{| class="wikitable"
!| Tool Info
!| Class
!| Tool Tester(s)
|-
{{ ToolTableItemRed | link=[[Vacuum Table Tool Resource Page]] }} || Alethea Jones
{{ ToolTableItemRed | link=[[Sentry Kiln Tool Resource Page]] }} || Alethea Jones
{{ ToolTableItemRed | link=[[Electromelt Tool Resource Page]] }} || Alethea Jones
{{ ToolTableItemRed | link=[[Casting Shop Oxy-Propane Tool Resource Page]] }} || Alethea Jones
|}
 
 
 
For a YouTube video on how to use the shop's vulcanizer.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XasXISlbQoI
 
== Shop Safety ==
{| class="infobox" cellspacing="5" style="width: 22em; text-align: left; font-size: 88%; line-height: 1.5em;"
! colspan="2" class="infobox-image" | [[File:buddy_up.jpg|200px|Buddy Up!]]
|-
| colspan="2" | Buddy Up!
|-
|}
'''[[Always Cast with a Buddy!]]''' 
 
For safety purposes, the Casting Shop requires that shop users work in pairs when pouring molten metal.
 
— '''Experienced Casting Buddies can be found through the shop’s Google groups email listserv.'''   
 
To subscribe, send a request email directly to the list: castingshop-users+subscribe@artisansasylum.com
 
OR
 
Send and email to the Casting Shop Lead requesting to be manually added: castingshop@artisansasylum.com
 
 
'''Proper attire and PPE are required, especially when pouring molten metal:'''
 
 
— '''Proper Attire:'''  Long Sleeves and Long Pants in Natural Fibers (cotton works well), Closed-toe Shoes (preferably leather). No loose hair or jewelry.  
 
Remember: Cotton will not prevent burns. Natural fibers are a way of ensuring that melted synthetics like polyester do not complicate a burn.
 
— '''PPE:'''  Safety Glasses (shade 3 when torch melting metal or looking into a hot kiln), Leather Apron, Heat Resistant Gloves. Dusk mask or respirator when mixing or cleaning dry investment.
 
 
[[IMPORTANT: Please keep tools and work surfaces reasonably clean of dried investment, which contains silica and poses a respiratory hazard when airborne and inhaled.]]
 
At minimum, dust masks are required when mixing investment and when cleaning dry investment spills. Respirators may provide additional protection. The shop maintains a supply of dust masks. For better fit and protection, frequent shop users may want to supply their own respiratory protection.
 
== Approved Materials ==
 
'''Pattern Materials approved for use in the Artisans Asylum Casting Shop'''
 
— Wax (injection or carving)

 
— Organics - generally approved, especially for plant materials, but ask first.
 
— PLA

 
— Ask first on Castable 3D printing resins.

 
— To add materials to the Approved Pattern Materials List, discuss with a shop steward and propose a workable, clean melt‐out/burnout profile.
 
 
'''Metals approved for use in the Artisans Asylum Casting Shop'''
 
— Brass, Bronze, Copper, Silver, Argentium, Gold, Aluminum, Pewter, Bismuth

 
— Metals we cannot do, given high melting points:  Titanium, Steel / Iron, Platinum

 
— Disallowed Metals:  Lead, Magnesium, Anything else with flammability / toxicity issues.
 
 
'''No random scrap and no unknowns'''
 
== Bismuth and Pewter ==
 
Our tools for melting bismuth and Pewter are privately owned and therefor considered red tools. A light training session is required to review shop safety protocols and to familiarize yourself with shop procedures.
 
Since the temperatures involved are equivalent to that of a hot kitchen oven, no casting buddy is required as long as the shop user knows where first aid supplies can be found, should a burn occur. THIS IS THE SHOP'S ONLY EXCEPTION TO THE SHOP'S RULE OF CASTING WITH A BUDDY WHEN POURING MOLTEN METAL.
 
When pouring molten bismuth and pewter alone, it is suggested that someone else in the building be made aware that metal is being poured, as a safety backup.
 
To receive training and testing, contact a tool tester, the Assistant Casting Shop Lead,
or the Casting Shop Lead. Training for bismuth and pewter can take place during the Casting Shop’s monthly Drop-by Hours.
 
For more information:
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11BUyXPz6xNDHGcTSYjh7JpLnMkvn-KYE/view?usp=sharing
 
== Contact Us ==
 
—  Send an email to the Casting Shop Lead at:  castingshop@artisansasylum.com
 
 
—  To stay informed, subscribe to the CastingShop-Users Google groups email list.                     
 
1. Send a request email directly to the list: castingshop-users+subscribe@artisansasylum.com
 
OR
 
2. Send an email to the casting Shop Lead requesting to be manually added: castingshop@artisansasylum.com
 
== Backup Kiln ==
 
For Instruction Manuals to the shop's backup kiln:
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/193pKW-FTew5FPsyBq6F8W6TltbeG5V4S/view?usp=sharing
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oHWqy9EYykvq1yl_T-0AVxZ3M8zRIbRW/view?usp=sharing
 
== Shop Calendar ==
 
Click below to Visit The Casting Shop Class and Special Event Calendar
 
 
<iframe src="https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?height=600&wkst=1&ctz=America%2FNew_York&bgcolor=%23ffffff&src=Y2FzdGluZ3Nob3BAYXJ0aXNhbnNhc3lsdW0uY29t&src=cGtxYjlzOXNmYnVwZTl0NmM2cGRydmdwYTh0ZWlxMXZAaW1wb3J0LmNhbGVuZGFyLmdvb2dsZS5jb20&src=cmlqYmhmc29rbnA5dWNuNDg5dXUwbXRsZ2VoZGt2NWJAaW1wb3J0LmNhbGVuZGFyLmdvb2dsZS5jb20&color=%23039BE5&color=%23D81B60&color=%23795548" style="border:solid 1px #777" width="800" height="600" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>
 
== Notes ==
 
This page and all of the subordinate pages were created using a minimal set of Wiki features.  If you want to get started with adding content and you think this page looks acceptable, the features used are described in a brief text file located here:
 
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/c3fervdzz27gsvfzt81ri/Brief-Instructions-on-Wiki-page-creation.txt?rlkey=cyo0gkyty1hiysfsgs6u7cuvq&dl=0

Revision as of 10:05, 22 February 2024

Casting Shop
View of the Artisans Asylum Casting Shop
Casting Shop
Lead Tess Faraci
Tool Testers

Sign up here

Hours Same as membership hours


Shop Description

The Artisans Asylum Casting Shop offers equipment and training for two main processes: Sand Casting and Investment Casting.


The Sand Casting program at the Artisans Asylum allows the reproduction of objects in metal with a level of detail suitable for small sculpture, jewelry, and select engineering applications.

— This method is suitable for beginners as well as experienced shop users who are interested in producing a cast piece within the time period of a few hours.


The Investment Casting program at the Artisans Asylum involves a two to three day process that allows the reproduction of complex shapes in a way that preserves a high level of fine detail.

— This method is suitable for intermediate to advanced shop users interested in achieving exceptionally high quality and precision in their cast objects.


The Casting Shop encourages experimentation and knowledge-sharing for the production of jewelry and artwork achievable using equipment appropriate to our shop. Our facilities are oriented toward hand crafted pieces the size of jewelry and slightly larger — we do not have the resources to support larger foundry work.

Casting Techniques

Bronze at 2000 F
Bronze at 2000 F

Investment Casting at the Artisans Asylum, sometimes referred to as Lost Wax Casting, starts with the creation of a jewelry-sized object, or “pattern,” often made with wax.

— The pattern is encased in investment, a silica and gypsum based substance that resembles plaster.

—Once the investment has set, the wax is then “burnt out” using an overnight kiln program, producing a cavity into which the molten metal can be poured. The kiln program also further hardens the investment.

— At a pre-arranged time the next day, the flask containing the investment is pulled out of the kiln and immediately put on a Vacuum Table, where the molten metal is then poured.

— Once metal has cooled enough to solidify, the hot flask is then “quenched,” or submerged in a bucket of water that quickly liquifies the investment, allowing the finished casting to be easily retrieved.


Sand Casting at the Artisans Asylum involves the use of Petrobond casting sand, an oil-based sand that significantly reduces the water vapor-produced concerns that come with water-based casting sands.

— Sand casting allows the reproduction of the pattern in a matter of hours, without the destruction of the original pattern.


A detailed overview of the Investment Casting process at the Artisans Asylum is available here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qid-hoZIWx5stFZQGZ09LY4L7qxmhOA8/view?usp=sharing


Details on mold construction with Petrobond Sand are available here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mP0Iwi35cRk-C8SCcghau3G-CnKU2bwY/view?usp=sharing

List of Primary Tools

For Melting Metal:

— Electro-melt(s). Link to: Electromelt Tool Resource Page

— Oxy-Propane Torch. Link to: Casting Shop Oxy-Propane Torch Resource Page

— The shop provides appropriate graphite and clay-silica crucibles.


For Investment Casting

— Investment Hood

— Kiln. Link to: Sentry Kiln Tool Resource Page

— Vacuum Table. Link to: Vacuum Table Tool Resource Page

— The shop provides Ransom & Randolph Ultra-Vest investment and casting flasks in select sizes.


The product sheet for Ultra-Vest investment can be found here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IVs3M5fmvPaCoeO9CmTQ55ZyzfqehWEH/view?usp=sharing


For Sand Casting

— The shop provides Petrobond sand, metal mold-making flasks in select sizes, and mold-making tools.

Tool Documentation

Tool Info Class Tool Tester(s)
Vacuum Table Tool Resource Page RED Alethea Jones
Sentry Kiln Tool Resource Page RED Alethea Jones
Electromelt Tool Resource Page RED Alethea Jones
Casting Shop Oxy-Propane Tool Resource Page RED Alethea Jones


For a YouTube video on how to use the shop's vulcanizer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XasXISlbQoI

Shop Safety

Buddy Up!
Buddy Up!

Always Cast with a Buddy!

For safety purposes, the Casting Shop requires that shop users work in pairs when pouring molten metal.

— Experienced Casting Buddies can be found through the shop’s Google groups email listserv.

To subscribe, send a request email directly to the list: castingshop-users+subscribe@artisansasylum.com

OR

Send and email to the Casting Shop Lead requesting to be manually added: castingshop@artisansasylum.com


Proper attire and PPE are required, especially when pouring molten metal:


— Proper Attire: Long Sleeves and Long Pants in Natural Fibers (cotton works well), Closed-toe Shoes (preferably leather). No loose hair or jewelry.

Remember: Cotton will not prevent burns. Natural fibers are a way of ensuring that melted synthetics like polyester do not complicate a burn.

— PPE: Safety Glasses (shade 3 when torch melting metal or looking into a hot kiln), Leather Apron, Heat Resistant Gloves. Dusk mask or respirator when mixing or cleaning dry investment.


IMPORTANT: Please keep tools and work surfaces reasonably clean of dried investment, which contains silica and poses a respiratory hazard when airborne and inhaled.

At minimum, dust masks are required when mixing investment and when cleaning dry investment spills. Respirators may provide additional protection. The shop maintains a supply of dust masks. For better fit and protection, frequent shop users may want to supply their own respiratory protection.

Approved Materials

Pattern Materials approved for use in the Artisans Asylum Casting Shop

— Wax (injection or carving)


— Organics - generally approved, especially for plant materials, but ask first.

— PLA


— Ask first on Castable 3D printing resins.


— To add materials to the Approved Pattern Materials List, discuss with a shop steward and propose a workable, clean melt‐out/burnout profile.


Metals approved for use in the Artisans Asylum Casting Shop

— Brass, Bronze, Copper, Silver, Argentium, Gold, Aluminum, Pewter, Bismuth


— Metals we cannot do, given high melting points:  Titanium, Steel / Iron, Platinum


— Disallowed Metals:  Lead, Magnesium, Anything else with flammability / toxicity issues.


No random scrap and no unknowns

Bismuth and Pewter

Our tools for melting bismuth and Pewter are privately owned and therefor considered red tools. A light training session is required to review shop safety protocols and to familiarize yourself with shop procedures.

Since the temperatures involved are equivalent to that of a hot kitchen oven, no casting buddy is required as long as the shop user knows where first aid supplies can be found, should a burn occur. THIS IS THE SHOP'S ONLY EXCEPTION TO THE SHOP'S RULE OF CASTING WITH A BUDDY WHEN POURING MOLTEN METAL.

When pouring molten bismuth and pewter alone, it is suggested that someone else in the building be made aware that metal is being poured, as a safety backup.

To receive training and testing, contact a tool tester, the Assistant Casting Shop Lead, or the Casting Shop Lead. Training for bismuth and pewter can take place during the Casting Shop’s monthly Drop-by Hours.

For more information:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11BUyXPz6xNDHGcTSYjh7JpLnMkvn-KYE/view?usp=sharing

Contact Us

— Send an email to the Casting Shop Lead at: castingshop@artisansasylum.com


— To stay informed, subscribe to the CastingShop-Users Google groups email list.

1. Send a request email directly to the list: castingshop-users+subscribe@artisansasylum.com

OR

2. Send an email to the casting Shop Lead requesting to be manually added: castingshop@artisansasylum.com

Backup Kiln

For Instruction Manuals to the shop's backup kiln:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/193pKW-FTew5FPsyBq6F8W6TltbeG5V4S/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oHWqy9EYykvq1yl_T-0AVxZ3M8zRIbRW/view?usp=sharing

Shop Calendar

Click below to Visit The Casting Shop Class and Special Event Calendar


<iframe src="https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?height=600&wkst=1&ctz=America%2FNew_York&bgcolor=%23ffffff&src=Y2FzdGluZ3Nob3BAYXJ0aXNhbnNhc3lsdW0uY29t&src=cGtxYjlzOXNmYnVwZTl0NmM2cGRydmdwYTh0ZWlxMXZAaW1wb3J0LmNhbGVuZGFyLmdvb2dsZS5jb20&src=cmlqYmhmc29rbnA5dWNuNDg5dXUwbXRsZ2VoZGt2NWJAaW1wb3J0LmNhbGVuZGFyLmdvb2dsZS5jb20&color=%23039BE5&color=%23D81B60&color=%23795548" style="border:solid 1px #777" width="800" height="600" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

Notes

This page and all of the subordinate pages were created using a minimal set of Wiki features. If you want to get started with adding content and you think this page looks acceptable, the features used are described in a brief text file located here:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/c3fervdzz27gsvfzt81ri/Brief-Instructions-on-Wiki-page-creation.txt?rlkey=cyo0gkyty1hiysfsgs6u7cuvq&dl=0

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